#038 - Prof. KENNETH STANLEY - Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned

Published 2021-01-19
Professor Kenneth Stanley is currently a research science manager at OpenAI in San Fransisco. We've Been dreaming about getting Kenneth on the show since the very begininning of Machine Learning Street Talk. Some of you might recall that our first ever show was on the enhanced POET paper, of course Kenneth had his hands all over it. He's been cited over 16000 times, his most popular paper with over 3K citations was the NEAT algorithm. His interests are neuroevolution, open-endedness, NNs, artificial life, and AI. He invented the concept of novelty search with no clearly defined objective. His key idea is that there is a tyranny of objectives prevailing in every aspect of our lives, society and indeed our algorithms. Crucially, these objectives produce convergent behaviour and thinking and distract us from discovering stepping stones which will lead to greatness. He thinks that this monotonic objective obsession, this idea that we need to continue to improve benchmarks every year is dangerous. He wrote about this in detail in his recent book "greatness can not be planned" which will be the main topic of discussion in the show. We also cover his ideas on open endedness in machine learning.

00:00:00 Intro to Kenneth
00:01:16 Show structure disclaimer
00:04:16 Passionate discussion
00:06:26 Why greatness cant be planned and the tyranny of objectives
00:14:40 Chinese Finger Trap
00:16:28 Perverse Incentives and feedback loops
00:18:17 Deception
00:23:29 Maze example
00:24:44 How can we define curiosity or interestingness
00:26:59 Open endedness
00:33:01 ICML 2019 and Yannic, POET, first MSLST
00:36:17 evolutionary algorithms++
00:43:18 POET, the first MLST
00:45:39 A lesson to GOFAI people
00:48:46 Machine Learning -- the great stagnation
00:54:34 Actual scientific successes are usually luck, and against the odds -- Biontech
00:56:21 Picbreeder and NEAT
01:10:47 How Tim applies these ideas to his life and why he runs MLST
01:14:58 Keith Skit about UCF
01:15:13 Main show kick off
01:18:02 Why does Kenneth value serendipitous exploration so much
01:24:10 Scientific support for Kenneth's ideas in normal life
01:27:12 We should drop objectives to achieve them. An oxymoron?
01:33:13 Isn't this just resource allocation between exploration and exploitation?
01:39:06 Are objectives merely a matter of degree?
01:42:38 How do we allocate funds for treasure hunting in society
01:47:34 A keen nose for what is interesting, and voting can be dangerous
01:53:00 Committees are the antithesis of innovation
01:56:21 Does Kenneth apply these ideas to his real life?
01:59:48 Divergence vs interestingness vs novelty vs complexity
02:08:13 Picbreeder
02:12:39 Isn't everything novel in some sense?
02:16:35 Imagine if there was no selection pressure?
02:18:31 Is innovation == environment exploitation?
02:20:37 Is it possible to take shortcuts if you already knew what the innovations were?
02:21:11 Go Explore -- does the algorithm encode the stepping stones?
02:24:41 What does it mean for things to be interestingly different?
02:26:11 behavioural characterization / diversity measure to your broad interests
02:30:54 Shaping objectives
02:32:49 Why do all ambitious objectives have deception? Picbreeder analogy
02:35:59 Exploration vs Exploitation, Science vs Engineering
02:43:18 Schools of thought in ML and could search lead to AGI
02:45:49 Official ending

Pod version: anchor.fm/machinelearningstreettalk/episodes/038--…

All Comments (21)
  • @blueberrymooon
    This is seriously one of the best episodes you've put out yet. I hope you guys bring Kenneth back for another conversation. Keep up the great work!
  • This is the channel that we don't deserve, but the channel that we need! Thanks for getting the balance right between technical details, philosophical insights, and street wisdom!
  • Still processing, that's right! First! This one has been in the making for nearly a year. Hope you like it folks! 😎😜✌👌❤
  • Amazing guest, one of my favorite researchers in AI! Really excited to watch this!
  • @Feel_theagi
    Thanks to the reviewer that denied Kenneth Stanley's grant application because of non clearly defined objectives, you have advanced the field of evolutionary algorithms
  • Great points about subjectivity and finding stepping stones. Another informative video that keeps giving every time I listen to it, thank you MLST and Dr Kenneth Stanley!
  • @freemind.d2714
    This is how guests composition should be for good Street Talk, we get Professor Kenneth Stanley to explain the idea and answer the question, Yannic to ask the common question most people have, Keith as conservative critic to question the idea at different angle, Tim as host to make sure the the discussion goes according to schedule and try to bridging the difference between idea in general, hope we have more Street Talk like this : )
  • BTW, towards Keith's comment about NS + Objective optimization. That isQuality Diversity. The thing does exist already, with a vibrant community and research. It's not the answer to open endedness but it's a really powerfull way to tackle an array of problems. Thanks for the session, watching now! Will be one of my favorite I'm sure.
  • @czeropSTI
    What a great episode! One of my favorites. After utilizing the NEAT algo to beat some of my favorite childhood games I decided to give Kenneth's book a read as well. He has quite a unique take on intelligence. I also really liked his visualization/explanation of unique search being stepping stones on a fog covered lake.
  • @LukaszStafiniak
    No worries about using clips from the interviews in the introductions, it's helpful.
  • @sedenions
    Excellent interview, I appreciate the content before the interview itself (including that colorful medium article). As an amateur novice when it comes to CS and ML, I look forward to reading Dr. Stanley's book as I learn the basics (me coming from a neuroscience background) of CS. Stumbled upon this high-tier content pod from Yannic, and stumbled upon Yannic from the recommender system.
  • "The smart part IS the exploration; objective optimization is the dumb part." Professor Kenneth Stanley
  • @brothachris
    Thank you so much for the work you're doing here. Discovering the ideas of Kenneth Stanley through your exquisite elucidation has provided so much direction and insight in my own research. Keep up the fantastic work!
  • @rafawojcik2453
    Amazing podcast, listening to you felt like life-changing experience, both from research perspective, but also self-consciousness. It was also enriching to listen to you, having a meaningful arguement when not all views were aligned - many people could learn a lot on how to have a constructive discussion simply by watching this video. I'm really happy I watched this one, thanks for great content!
  • Really enjoyed this discussion, it reminded me of a quote from a poem. "Science nor religion have made the last invention, it takes individuals to see true perfection, to move past the rhetoric of man and think in the manner of angels". Failures do not come via choice but by chance. I believe these failures [small and large] give one a good chance for growth if one makes the right choice to seek the correct interpretation.
  • @judgeomega
    Tim, your reasons for the podcast mentioned around the 1:10:00 mark remind me very much of alex wisner-gross's theory on intelligence: the maximization of the sum future freedom of action. you put yourself in a position to potentially offer many opportunities. It is my assertion that the sum maximization of the future freedom of action for all individuals is the ultimate in end goals. I think it is the best formalization of 'good' ever put forth. I feel it can be applied widely in comparing and contrasting actions to make decisions which will benefit everyone. It is exactly what we want in AGI/ ASI, and certainly would be neat if applied to the personal or government level. It has issues (as do all proposed control problem solutions) with the ambiguity of defining exactly who/what should be included in the concept of 'individual' as well as its computability. Obviously any objective function will have to harness heuristics and impose limits in order to process such a vast problem, and with those shortcuts mistakes will be made. i think fundamentally we are stuck with uncertainty. but i believe that is ok, man has made no shortage of mistakes. but as long as we attempt to do the best we can, we make positive steps towards making things better.
  • @soccerplayer922
    Wow this video was awesome. Captured a lot of what I've been thinking. Ken Stannley is the GOAT
  • @mahimanzum
    By far the best podcasts i have ever seen. Keep up the good work guys
  • I see a strong relationship between the idea of unplanned greatness and Nassim Taleb's views! Especially on Anti-Fragile and Black Swans.
  • @matt.jordan
    Bro I feel like I’ve found such a hidden gem of a podcast before it’s gotten big y’all are seriously making such sick content!!