P-51 Mustang Out-Turned by Fw 190 D-9? Yes, This Happened But...

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Pilot and engineer here. We like it when you do the math.

My German books on Dora units point out there were few experienced pilots that could fly Dora to its max.

As someone who has gotten unreasonably frustrated about getting stomped by mustangs in the Dora, I thank you for making this video. It really contextualizes and bears out a lot of the impression I had gotten in my fights. Your last comment about the Dora being one the aircraft you perform best with is interesting to me as well. I find that all Fw-190 missions for me, either in DCS or IL-2, are either huge successes or crushing defeats. There's very little middle ground with this aircraft.

I kinda like the thought that: If you pull too hard: -Below Maneuvering Speed, your wing stalls and you fall out of the sky. -Above Maneuvering Speed, your wings fall off and you fall out of the sky. Don't Pull Too Hard. Great video as always, Greg! Thank You.

There are so many variables that change so quickly moment by moment. This is what makes first hand accounts so confusing. They cannot take in account for the other guys energy state etc.

There's a story about how Kurt Tank, the designer of the FW-190 took a high altitude version of this airplane called a TA-152 to a factory. En route, he was "jumped" by a couple of P-51's; He simply turned on the water-methanol injection system on his Junkers Jumo engine and pushed the throttle to the end of its travel. He left the Mustangs in the dust....

All these well researched and produced videos. Greg, when do you find time to fly?

First, Bill Lyons stalled in a high G turn to meet the attacking FW-190Ds, and stalled out. It was not a maneuvering turn engagement. The 190D shot at him in the quick pass at Lyons in a spin. Lyons recovered and caught one of the 190s chasing his flight leader and shot it down. Further Lyons four ship flight was flying CAP for rest of the 357FS strafing Kothen airfield, closer to 5K. As a final point Lyons load out was probably ejected wing tanks, and burn of fuselage tank to 20-30gal. I obtained this data from Bill back in 2007 when I was researching my book on the 355th. That doesn't detract from Greg's presentation to discuss 'in general' maneuver comparisons. The only issue I take with the technical discussion is that CLmax (max lift coeffcient) is critical - and can be 'reasonably' Estimated by symmetric stall for power on. Not having the FW 190D Stall speed and resultant 'estimated' CLmax is kind a non starter for a thorough discussion. That is the easy part. Absent report data, Greg might look up CL vs AoA charts for NACA 23015.5 (FW 190 airfoil, and then correct 2-D windtunnel data for Aspect Ratio) to test his assumptions. The 2-D Clmax for NACA 23015 is~ 1.8 @16degrees Angle of attack. The WING airfoil section drag coefficient CDp at 1.6 CL (2-D) is ~ .022 in low Reynolds Number/high AoA range. That is more than the total Drag of a production P-51B at NACA full scale wind tunnel at 100mpg (CDp= 0.021@RN=6.19x10^6). The other factors which must be considered for accurate discussion include; 1. Turning fights at constant altitude, assuming equal pilot skill, equal internal load out for comparative Gross weights are by NECESSITY 'asymmetric' flight conditions - namely more lift on high wing and lower lift on low wing, imposing more drag on upper wing, while at same time approaching CLmax. The first wing to stall is the upper wing with higher relative angle of attack. Further the 190 had an unusual washout, constantly decreasing to 80% semi span - then constant = 0. This resulted in lower Induced drag but also less aileron authority as the lift distribution tapered quickly near the wing tip.. 2. Developing a model for comparisons requires an estimate to include trim drag imposed by pilot on rudder and elevator to track in level flight as an additional component to Hp lost. 3. Power Available for full speed range in the model is required and, as Greg noted, propeller efficiency has wide variations as a function of airspeed, density altitude and tip speed when at high altitude. Lowest efficiency for the P-51 Ham Std prop was in turning at low speed in less than optimal blade pitch angle. Suspect FW 190 prop as bad. Power Available for this discussion also must look to 'power sucking' factors like increased Pressure Drag over prop diameter vortex across fuselage and wing immersed in the vortex, THP generated by exhaust gas thrust, THP losses due to cooling drag and momentum recovery of carb intakes. By comparison the drag of the Mustang was superior to the FW 190 for all these discussions. The FW 190 compensated with higher power available in several flight envelopes. 4. Constant altitude Flight is maintained when Lift x Cosign of Bank Angle = Gross Weight. The 'break' between a level altitude turn and a descending cork screw is when CLmax is approached and CLmax is a function of Angle of Attack (as TAS approaches Stall). 5. When CLmax is reached with high wing, increasing bank angle or reducing airspeed causes loss of a sufficient Lift vector to maintain level flight. 6. Any discussion about using combat flap settings with either fighter is meaningful only when talking about creating sharper turn/bank for a deflection shot - but dramatically increases drag and the initial high G turn rate can not be sustained - either in Rate of turn or constant altitude. See 3 above. Even though these nagging complaints were rattling my attention I still enjoyed Greg's presentation.

My God, that dreaded diamond emblem on the tail sends shivers down my spine every single time . . .

I love how you point out in no uncertain terms that what happens is completely situational despite the math of "this work/doesn't work on paper". I like how you also say that of course pilot difference in skill and physicality (ability to handle Gs) would matter also. Great Video!

Like you said. Just a tiny bit of altitude overhead would explain this report. The Dora could use that bit of energy to pull in.

One thing to also consider. Stalls don't happen at particular speed, it is angles of attack. The speeds are given as references as there were no specific AOA indicators.... With that said.... Even though the P-51D was a North American airfoil, it is similar to the 66 series airfoil as used in the P-51H. The second 6 in that airfoil dictates that laminar flow is ensured throughout 6/10ths of the chord. And so happens that the max thickness is about 6/10ths back from the leading edge, making it a fairly radical airfoil for it's day... So, beyond stall speeds.... The P51 wing is more like a steak knife and the Dora like a butter knife. The sharp edge of the leading edge on the P51 makes it much more sensitive to angle of attack, and for the air to remain attached it has to make it past 6/10ths of the airfoil to get over the" hump". Also I should mention a bunch of civilian, airshow related, history of accelerated stall/spin crashes in Mustangs.... It's true with a lot of airfoils like this too.... The A-26 Invader has a 65-215.... Laminar through 5/10ths of the chord. The training videos state that the plane is to be flown off the runway, and that normal landings are a 3 point (tricycle) with no flare out.

Greg, as always, you are insanely informative and entertaining.

Remember that in the fall of 1944 G-suits began to be issued to American fighter pilots. I have not read anything about the combat use of flaps by Mustang pilots as well.

I think that quite a few fighters from that period qualify as hotrods, and infact the Spitfire is probably the most deserving of the title, as it did so in 2 different forms: 1)In it Merlin evolutionary path, it went from ~1000hp to ~1700hp in a relatively short period of time, by using improved fuels/ increased boost, newer tech Superchargers etc. Shame these Spits never got the 2000hp Merlin 130 series, that would have been quite a thing in the mkviii airframe. 2) replacing the Merlin with the Griffon on the mkxii, xiv and later marks. 'No replacement for displacement'. Massive power from an additional 10l capacity. The coolings on these aircraft, shaped to fit the rocker covers of the Griffon, are pure hotrod.

There was an article on the P-38L which said that it could out turn a P-51D as well. The pilot had to slow the engine inside the turn and speed up the outside engine. This could be done by a very experienced P-38 pilot understanding and using some complicated engine management.

I recall once reading a spitfire pilot also complaining of being outturned by a 190. The 190 had a 10 degree flap setting for takeoff, any pilot daring enough to use that in a turning fight might well be able to pull a tighter radius without damaging the flaps.

Appreciate your videos for the balanced look on the matter. What I am getting from this comparison: These planes are so similar, factors that have nothing to do with the planes themselves like positioning and accumulated energy advantage before the engagement are much more decisive in battle than having a tiny edge on a chart.

I guess when Kurt Tank understood that the G56 wasn't gonna happen, he did an emergency design, waiting for the TA serie. Still a low fuel Dora was certainly able to outturn a P51 still on the road to the objective. After all we cannot account for initial energy, eventual "out of plane" maneuvering and other factors, like the "Health" of the involved planes and eventual discrepancies like the mustang coming in a turn after rolling from a less favourable position then neutral, or the Dora coming from a turn already in the same plane of flight. We simply do noy have the full picture and have to accept the eye witness testimony After all, Heinz Knoke, in his biography "I flew for the F**rer" (sorry you tube tends to delete anything nowadays) said no allied fighter was ever able to match his Bf-109G6 in a corkscrew in a climb. He was the one flying it, he was the one using that maneuver to get out of trouble and he was still alive in 1945. It reminds me about physicists doubting the ability for a Bumblebee to fly, except the Bumblebee, not know Physisc kept flying anyway.