SHOGUN 1x8 "The Abyss of Life" Reaction & Discussion!

“To deceive your enemy, you have to deceive your friend first.”

This episode showed the definition of loyalty and how to trick everyone into thinking you have given up.

Hiromatsu is the ultimate samurai and friend. Him telling his son to live and serve Toranaga was a huge hint that this was all part of the plan. Hiromatsu dying served Toranaga's plan to have Anjin and Yabushige head to Osaka. Everything that happens is either part of Toranaga's plan, or he quickly shifts and reassess when needed. Even what is to come with Mariko.

Watch the seppuku scene again. when hiromatsu and toranaga were having a staredown. there was a very subtle moment where hiromatsu realized. both of them gave a subtle eye movement at each other.

Lord Bantoro really going through the most this episode, first his wife refused to dye with him, then his dad's like nah son, you not dying with me either. He is in his rejection era

Had tears streaming down my face at the end of this episode. Gah no! Such a great episode again

As for the plan to deceive the people of Osaka in connection with seppuku, as any Japanese person would know, it was not a plan that had been decided upon in advance. They consider the ideas of others, think about the path they should take, and decide on their own actions. Even if you don't have a meeting in advance, you can know how to act because you can see the other person's feelings. Not everyone wants to die. However, there are people in a position to die in order to serve a good cause. In this case, the higher the rank of the person who dies, the more able they are to deceive the enemy.The man who committed seppuku "felt" that it was his turn, no matter what anyone told him to do.That is why he willingly committed seppuku. From a samurai's perspective on life and death, how you use your life is important. Seppuku may seem like a wasteful death to non-Japanese people, but that is not the case. In this case, by defying Toranaga and committing seppuku, he gives the impression that Toranaga is determined to surrender. And by deceiving Osaka here, Toranaga will have an easier time winning.His death was necessary for Tono to achieve victory. So his death was not in vain. In the Japanese way of thinking, since he died for his lord, his life was worth it.He senses that Toranaga's surrender is a lie, and when he considers why he said such a thing, he realizes that it is a ruse. So, after thinking about what he could do to make that plan even more perfect, he committed seppuku. He understands his role without being told and is willing to die for the cause. I thought that kind of thing was very Japanese.

Yabushige would not leave Edo aboard John Blackthorne’s ship unless he was sure that Toranaga was going to surrender. Toranaga wanted Yabushige to move the ship and the weapons, but it had to appear like it was all Yabushige’s decision and not a war move by Toranaga. At the end of Shōgun episode 8, when Yabushige and Blackthorne were already aboard the Englishman’s ship, Lady Mariko arrived with a message from Toranaga. Whatever Toranaga’s battle plan is, it involves John Blackthorne and his ship.

Hiromatsu knew the plan without Toranaga telling him and he just did his duty, That why he refused Buntaro to die as well so that he could be helpful to Toranaga in the future. He also said that believes in our lord even if it seems he doesn't believe in himself.

old man Hiromatsu was based on historical figure "Torii Mototada". He served Tokugawa (Toranaga) since his lord was still a kid. When Tokugawa was running from Ishida Mitsunari (Ishido), Mototada volunter to be the rear guard, Even though he can run, In an act of loyalty to his lord Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga) Mototada chose to remain behind, honoring his friend & lord's request, and defend fushimi castle, which block the way to edo (His Lord's base).  He defend it with only 1800 men against Ishida's (Ishido) 40.000. Their held for 12 days, killing thousands of enemies, until only 10 men remaining, including Mototada and then they do ritual suicide / seppuku. This sacrifice buyed time for Tokugawa to raise 90.000 troops and raise his army's morales to face Ishida (Ishido) at Sekigahara.  Mototada's suicide at the fall of Fushimi Castle is one of the most celebrated acts of seppuku in Japanese history. In honor & battle, he is perhaps the greatest samurai. Mototada last words to his lord before they parted ways sadly knowing that they would never see each other again : "....I am resolved to make a stand within the castle and to die a quick death. It would not take much trouble to break through a part of their numbers and escape, no matter how many tens of thousands of horsemen approached for the attack or by how many columns we were surrounded. But that is not the true meaning of being a warrior, and it would be difficult to account as loyalty. Rather, I will stand off the forces of the entire country here, and ... die a resplendent death."

Courtesans don´t deserve such bad neighbours. :face-blue-smiling:

Blackthorn found out what it is to live for yourself…it can be lonely. Now he’s caught between two worlds allying with someone he doesn’t like

Toranaga keeping his mask up as Hiromatsu was committing seppuku is a God-Tier level of stoic self control. And the fact that he actually had to control himself like that means he's not just a psychopath. That close up on his face as thte head rolled to his feet...💔💔💔

“覚悟”のレベルが違う...。 この言葉の意味を今一度考えさせられた。

I read the novel "Shogun" in junior high school way back in 1980 just before the first miniseries premiered and I've read the book at least 30 times since (I also spent many years living and working in Japan, China and East Asia more generally). If you read the book very closely, what you learn is that Toronaga has this mental habit of categorizing his allies, vassals and the pilot Blackthorne as different species of hawks and falcons that he uses to catch prey. If you didn't realize it, falconry is his favorite leisure sport. Falconry is a great choice by Clavell to explain how Toronaga understands the other characters and views the world. I dabble in falconry and the very first lesson you learn is that those birds of prey are never truly domesticated. They will fly at your command only if trained and conditioned to do so after many months of hard work. And even then, there will come a day when the bird of prey decides on its own whim to simply not return to the fist. That's why the use of falconry by Clavell to illustrate Toronaga's thinking is more than just a fictional allegory; it's really how Toronaga has learned to think of the people around him. They are birds of prey, willing and unwilling, to be used to catch his prey and achieve his desired ends. Toronaga has the moral fiber and emotional empathy to think and recognize these people are fellow human beings with feelings, desires, etc. He does care about his people on a certain and honest level just as he loves his birds of prey. But in the end, he also recognizes that these human "birds of prey" are all flawed and at times make bad decisions that then lead them to seek self-destruction for no good purpose. In the book, there is a scene where Toronaga muses on the stupidity of people and you realize it's not arrogance but simply his understanding that he can't change people any more than he can change the personalities of his birds of prey. Recognizing that human flaws are inevitable, he has learned to accept his allies, vassals, etc. on their own terms and use that knowledge to achieve his one great purpose, to become Shogun. I should add that in the novel, Toda Hiromatsu doesn't commit seppuku or die at all. He's there at the end of the novel. This is one of many changes from the book that I strongly disagree with and it stems from the miniseries writers' trying to make a great story more dramatic when the original is already perfectly so.

18:18 the BOMBASTIC side eye, Criminal Offensive side eye 👀 that Omi gave to his uncle, and the latter reaction to it was hilarious. 😂

皆んなが同じストーリー、同じ内容のドラマを視聴したが視聴者それぞれ解釈が違うのが面白いね。 文化的な要素が強いドラマだから日本人なら簡単に解釈できるシーンでも海外の人からは解釈が難しいシーンもあるみたいだね。 そこで皆んなが自分なりの解釈をコメントして理解を深めようとしている。 このドラマの最大の魅力の一つだね！

I think Hiromatsu never knew until he already delcared to do the seppuku. He realized that Toranaga was faking it all when they stared each other down but since he already declared he would do seppuku he had to follow through now to fully sell the lie of surrendering.

Toranaga embodies that line from Sun Tsu’s Art of War - “Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.”

Actor playing Hiromatsu is truly superb. His look, his voice etc all scream "badass" I was really sad to see him go this episode, but knew (from the final look he shared with Toranaga) it was all part of a bigger plan.