Is Italian meringue COOKED? How I experimented to find out...

I just love the scientific approuch! <3 Question: What if we mix the Swiss and Italian meringue technics? Say, we make suiss meringue with the half of the sugar and boiling syrup with the rest and pour it over the suiss meringue? Would it be as resistant as Italian and salmonela free as the Swiss? :)

Pasteurization is a factor of temperature AND time, which was demonstrated by the table shown in the video. You don't have to reach 160 degrees to kill salmonella, that's just considered a safe temperature because you only have to hit it for a few seconds. At lower temperatures you just need to maintain the temperature longer to kill bacteria. It would be interesting to look back through the video recording paying attention to how long the meringue stayed above specific temperatures to see if pasteurization was achieved.

I just made a batch of Italian Meringue Buttercream. I used a metal bowl & cooked my sugar syrup up to 248 Degrees F. I took the temperature right after all the syrup was incorporated into the meringue in the center of the meringue & the temperature was 168 degrees F for 3 seconds before very slowly dropping to 165 degrees. It held above 165 degrees F for at least 8 seconds.

Every single time I've tried to make meringue using carton egg whites, it has NEVER gotten to stiff peaks. I've tried using different brands, too. People in the macaron community have said it works, but I just can't get it to work. I would love to see an experiment on it. It would be so much easier than cracking fresh eggs every time, and having way too many egg yolks leftover.

Ok, so I have a part 2 for you! I made some interesting discoveries of my own yesterday, after two consecutive batches of Italian meringue I was making for a Baked Alaska totally deflated after resting them an hour. I re-watched this video afterwards, and some of your findings stood out to me this time, in light of some observations I just had - I think I'm on to something, and I think you're just the person to test my new theory! I made the Italian meringue the same way I always do for Italian Buttercream - my go-to frosting. I felt sure I could easily make an Italian meringue for this Baked Alaska (my first ever attempt at making one of those), as I've made one so many times before when making Italian Buttercream. But I've never tried using just the Italian meringue for anything before, so I've never allowed the meringue to rest for any length of time. I've always used the same method you use in this video to make my Italian meringue - 4 egg whites, cream of tarter and salt. Beat until foamy, then slowly add 1/3 cup of sugar while I cook a sugar syrup containing 1 cup of sugar to the soft ball stage (235 is what I normally go with). I haven't splurged on a stand mixer yet (probably will soon, though), and it did take me a while to get it right using a hand mixer. I've adjusted my process with practice, and I've based my success mostly on the consistency of the final Italian Buttercream. Some people hardly beat the egg whites before adding the hot sugar syrup, but this has never worked for me. I think it might work if I had a stand mixer, but I know some people with stand mixers still do it the way you and I do, beating the meringue to about medium-stiff peaks before adding the syrup. At least when using a hand mixer, I've found that the meringue doesn't develop much further once I add the syrup. This is also why I always make Italian instead of Swiss buttercream - I've tried Swiss a couple of times, but I'm unable to get the egg whites to whip up stiff after heating them with the sugar. Again, I don't have a stand mixer. What stood out to me re-watching your video last night were a couple of your incidental findings, rather than the temperature issue. You noted that the meringue came out much stiffer and fluffier using a stand mixer vs a hand mixer, and you noted that the hand-mixed Italian meringue, while it was rather thin, didn't weep syrup like the much fluffier stand mixer version. My first two batches of Italian meringue pretty much did what your hand-mixed version did, after resting for only an hour or so. I made the first one just like always, but then when I was getting ready to put it in a piping bag, and quick stir caused it to promptly collapse and become soup. I immediately thought that maybe my normal process wasn't actually right, so I decided to make an adjustment. Some people recommend cooking the syrup to the hard ball stage (250), so that's what I tried next. I also decided to take the meringue up to stiff peaks, trying to go just short of that point where it balls up and loses elasticity. Both changes should have yielded a stiffer meringue, and the result was slightly stiffer. I let the meringue rest at room temperature for about an hour, and then proceeded to try to pipe it onto my Baked Alaska. It held up better than the first batch, and initially seemed like it would be ok. But the more I manipulated it to get it into the piping bag, the softer it was getting. I thought it was still going to be stiff enough for my Baked Alaska, so I proceeded to pipe it on, but squeezing it through the piping tip made it even softer, and it all started to run off my ice cream. Frustrated, I decided to make a third batch. I'd spent far more time on this already than I'd planned, and was down to my last 4 eggs, so I really deliberated for a while about how I'd adjust the recipe for this final attempt. Italian meringue is supposed to be really stiff and stable, so why was mine not holding up? If I whipped the meringue any further, It would get to that overly-dense stage, so I didn't think I should beat it any longer. I was definitely going to cook the syrup to 250 and beat to full stiff peaks before adding it, as those two measures had yielded some improvement over my first batch. The problem was mostly stability - both meringues seemed pretty good initially, but they collapsed after resting for a pretty short time. Then it occurred to me - I've seen a couple people on YouTube don't add any granulated sugar to their egg whites - they put all of it in as a syrup. I reasoned that if I did it that way, then all of the sugar I was adding would set into candy, whereas the way I'd been doing it, only 75% of the sugar was heated. I reasoned that this might possibly yield a stiffer Italian meringue. It also occurred to me that if 100% of the sugar had been heated, I'd be introducing 25% more thermal energy into the mixed. So if cooking the egg whites was a factor in stabilizing Italian meringue, that might help by getting my mix to a higher temperature. Guess what? That was totally the trick! I beat the egg whites all the way to stiff peaks with no sugar - which I get is a little more risky because you can over-beat. Then I poured in my sugar syrup - the same total amount of sugar, still cooked to 250. Doing it this way, the meringue actually became stiffer as it cooled than the egg whites were before they got the syrup - that's never happened when doing it my usual way and using a hand mixer. After sitting for an hour at room temp, the meringue still looked like a proper, stiff meringue, and it didn't collapsed when I stirred and piped it! So I definitely found the answer to making a stable Italian Meringue - don't add sugar to your egg whites, put it all in the syrup. I will continue to whip my egg whites to my desired final consistency before adding the syrup, since that worked this time and trying to whip a heated sugar-egg mixture never has for me. Putting my findings together with the findings you made in this video, here's my new theory: - There's a huge difference between adding all of the sugar as a hot syrup, compared with adding 25% of it in granular form and then adding the syrup. - This could simply be due to amount of stabilizing candy matrix in the meringue being 25% higher, - OR - THE PRESENCE OF SUGAR CRYSTALS IN THE MIXTURE INHIBITS THE FORMATION OF THE CANDY MATRIX ALTOGETHER. I strongly suspect the later, as the difference in the result was so dramatic. - The difference could possibly be accounted for another way. In this video, you convincingly dispelled the commonly-held belief that Italian Meringue is cooked....or did you? Because, if you add 25% more hot syrup, that's 25% more thermal energy in the mixture. If I'm not mistaken, the specific heat of sugar is rather high, isn't it? Meaning that it holds a lot of thermal energy, but it also takes a lot of thermal energy TO GET IT HOT. If the egg foam didn't contain room-temperature sugar, WOULDN'T THE FINAL TEMPERATURE BE HIGHER, even before account for the 25% increase in hot syrup??? - I think if you repeat the experiments in this video but add all your sugar as a hot syrup, you'll get a higher temperature that might possibly reach the 160 target. - I think if you let that meringue rest, it won't weep like the one made by your current method. - I think there will be less difference between the hand mixer vs. stand mixer meringues, if you use the process I used (beat the egg whites to stiff peaks before adding syrup). - If you don't beat the egg whites fully before adding the syrup, I think the stand mixer will yield a stiff meringue but the hand mixer won't. - I think if you let those both sit.....that's what I'm really curious to see. Will the hand mixer version fail to stiffen, but remain very stable, and the stand mixer version come out great but have less stability? I suspect that heating the egg whites to high temperature has a negative effect on their ability to foam, but the mechanical action of a stand mixer is able to overcome this in a way that a hand mixer can't. I think the difference in either mixer's ability to foam unheated egg whites is probably there, but not all that significant. I think the ability to maintain the initial foam and to develop it even further after the syrup is added is better with the stand mixer, but a stiff meringue could be achieved with either if we whip the egg whites fully and then add 100% of the sugar in a hot syrup. Despite being able to produce a nice foam, the structure of meringues produced by whipping heated egg whites may not be equivalent to those produced by whipping room-temperature egg whites, and then heating. I think you stumbled onto that finding when you observed that the stand mixer meringue achieved greater foam development but this was not stable, whereas the hand mixer achieved poor foam development, but the result was comparatively more stable. I think the stand mixer will achieve additional foam development after the syrup is added, whereas the hand mixer will not, but I'm not sure about stability. The instability in your Italian meringue was due to the incorporation of granulated sugar - I'm convinced of that. But I now also suspect that any foam development achieved after egg whites have been heated may be less stable than foam development achieved prior to heating. With the stabilization problem solved, there's still some question about whether a difference in stability of post-heating meringue foam a) is a thing at all, and b) wouldn't matter even if it is a thing, when the meringue is properly stabilized by hot syrup.

i honestly love ur videos SO much especially the "i hate american buttercream so i invented a new frosting" i tried it out and it was delicious all your videos are informative and this one made me know a bunch <3

I honestly was thinking of making Italian meringue to make buttercream for my mother's birthday BUT my mother hates anything that has to do with egg whites not being cooked. After I found this video of yours, I decided I'll make swiss meringue buttercream.

To give a little perspective, cooking an egg sunny side up or even overeasy leaving the yolk runny is only about 135-140 degrees in the yolk.

Thank you for doing all these experiments! I love watching them!

Awesome video! Thanks for taking the time to put together such a well thought out experiment and document your results! I especially love your experimental approach of starting with heated egg whites. I had the same concerns about Italian meringue being undercooked, until I learned about "swiss meringue." I used the Swiss method, cooking egg whites and sugar with a water bath until the mixture hit 171F, then I popped it into the stand mixer and it whipped up perfectly. Afterwards, the gradual addition of room temperature butter left me with a big bowl of Swiss buttercream! I'm not sure what difference doing it the Italian method would make, but the Swiss method is so much more simple and (imo) guarantees food safety so it is the obvious choice for me. Also, I'm pretty confident Swiss meringue can be made entirely by hand (no stand mixer) which may not be possible with Italian meringue.

your videos are such an amazing learning experience for me - thank u

I LOVE your channel. Where else would we get videos like this other than maybe America's Test Kitchen!? Thank you for going through all that work and calculating to present us with your answer! Very valuable! :)

This is so interesting. I'm curious, I'd love to see a video of a chiffon or angel food cake, made with whipped egg whites, and then again with other types of meringues to see how the texture and structure of the crumb are different.

You did such an incredible job at taking the time to do an experiment on which mixer to use to make Italian meringue. Between the choices of two mixers via the hand vs stand, like a lot of other people, I think I would prefer my stand mixer because it seems like you get a much accurate result with the whisk attachment than the hand mixer. Good Job! I might try making Italian Meringue one day!

That’s very interesting. I like the idea and the experiments you do. 😊😎

Nice vid, thanks you for all info🙏 As a baker I've yet to hear of anyone contracting salmonella via merengue, but good to know it could be posible (although unlikely) 😅😱

This is why I just use the boxed pasteurized egg whites when I make cake for others! It's also easier to measure out the liquid 😅

Do you have a macaron recipe? I’d love to see your take on macarons!

Yesssss! Love this 👏👏👏🙌 pls do more sis ☺️ I really wanna see if we can get cooked italian meringue, or just cooked in another method xD

Great video,thank you so much! I really love Italian meringue buttercream and my attempts to substitute fresh eggs whites with pasteurized ones, haven’t really worked, so I’m very eagerly waiting for your next video on this subject. Not to mention that it would immensely reduce the amount of egg yolks I need to somehow use. A girl can only make so much curd! 😂